Homeschool Cage Fight · The Unlikely Son

NOTE: As a past homeschooler, I've talked with lots of people about homeschooling. It often raises a lot of antagonism, even hatred in the people I talk with, and they gang up on me, lol. The hatred is typically aimed at God. I found an exchange that occurred a few years ago. It's pretty representative of my internet experience in discussing homeschooling. My responses in red.

FROM FRANK

Home schooling is just about the worst possible way to prepare a child for real life.

By “real life”, I suppose you mean the life the average adult experiences after schooling, such as marriage, job, kids, friends and the like.

Tell me, in real life…

…are people corralled into age groups?

…do most people feel they have nothing to learn from someone younger than themselves?

…do most people complete written work assignments on various subjects all day long?

…is time minced into 48 minute segments, each guided by a different person with a different purpose, focus, and style?

…does a person’s age often make a big difference whether or not you befriend him?

…do most people use slang that is unintelligible to any but a small, select group?

…do most people strongly encourage their kids to have sex, and teach no moral or ethical considerations, but only safety?

…do most people have absolutely nothing to do with God?

…does it make no difference how you dress or look?

…do most people hold a healthy contempt for anyone much older, and more knowledgeable and experienced than themselves?

…do most people learn something for the purpose of passing a written test, then promptly forget it?

I could go on and on. If you ask me, Frank, public schools are a good preparation for real life in the same way chewing sugar gum is good preparation for a career in dentistry. Oh, you’ll be involved in dentistry, just not in the way you want or like.

FROM LC

The public school system is awful if you live in a poor neighborhood. If you live in an affluent one, it's pretty darn good, as are the families who utilize it.

I'm acquainted with quite a few homeschoolers. They fall into two camps. One, the smaller one, has normal people whose kids turn out just as well prepared for "real life" (whatever that means) as anyone else. The other, the larger camp, is largely very religious people who use a religious homeschooling curricula, and their opinion of their kids and their education is far greater than, let's say, mine is.

FROM FRANK

John, your views don't surprise me. Home schooling is very popular among the evangelical set. Hence my opinion of it.

Home-schooled, religion-indoctrinated kids are frequently runaways and easy prey for the predators who hang around city bus terminals. Ask any cop or social worker. Keeping children isolated from how the world really works is incredibly damaging.

Huh. Here I've been homeschooling for over 12 years, and I've never heard about either of those woes in the homeschooling community.

For myself, I don't personally know any homeschoolers (and I know a LOT of them) who isolate their kids from how the world really works. However, I would agree that homeschool kids receive much more education in how the world OUGHT to work. In other words, we teach them manners, politeness, sobriety, chastity, godliness, cleanliness, neatness, organization, commitment, seriousness...you know, all the things absent in many public schools nowadays. Or if public schools try to teach some of these things, they are more than overwhelmed by peer sentiments. I'm not too concerned that my son learn about rudeness, insults, slang, drugs, alcohol, profanity, slovenliness, chaos, and how to have a really good time, which yep, is how most of the world and socialization of public schools really works. I've shown him plenty of examples of that sort of thing by pointing out public school "success" walking our streets, and done my best to steer him toward a different kind of success, which I know will prove much more rewarding and enjoyable for both him and society. So far, no complaints from anyone.

Now do homeschool kids do bad, unwise things? Do they runaway and get pregnant and do drugs and alcohol? Yep. But the percentage that do these things is FAR less than public school percentages. Not even close.

FROM LC

John, your talking points for homeschooling are right out of the Frightened-Of-Our-Own-Shadows manifesto. I've seen them posted practically verbatim message boards, whenever militant homeschoolers need to tell everyone why their system is so superior. The lack of originality, the parroting of Focus on the Family tells me all I need to know about the "superior," original, critical-thinking education your kids are getting.

And yeah, I know a few of these "business-oriented" homeschooling families. They toss a curriculum at their kids, who basically self-teach themselves once they're past 12, and Mom makes every trip to Walmart a chore pointing out price tags (the "business" teaching). Most of these homeschooling moms never held a job past retail clerk or (lousy) elementary school teacher.

And if all you see is slovenliness, disrespect, etc., etc., where you are, that's what you must look for or what you attract (birds of feather?). I see some of that, but it's not *all* I see, and birds of a feather DO flock together, meaning my kids choose (yes, they choose their friends, I don't choose them for them) the ones they prefer. That their friends are good students, well-mannered, and non-slovenly says a lot about what my kids attract vs. what yours do. I guess there's a reason you have to choose your kids' friends?

And about this "sacrificing" nonsense. It's not a "sacrifice" if it's what you want to do. Most SAHMs I know, and all homeschooling mothers, HATED their jobs and couldn't wait to quit. Most had low-paying jobs despite their (mediocre) college degrees, so it's not like they could afford daycare, anyhow. So where's the great "sacrifice?"

Well, I can see you know zero about homeschooling. For the record, I have not the slightest clue what Focus on the Family says about homeschooling. I know at one time Dobson was against it, but I think he's for it now. I'm simply telling you my opinion from my own experience of over a decade.

I personally know no homeschoolers who are scared of their own shadows. I know I'm not. I don't think minimizing disadvantages and maximizing advantages is evidence of cowardice. I expect my son soon to be telling public school kids what to do and where to go as he pays them for their labor.

While you know nothing of homeschooling, I know plenty about public schools. I was educated in public schools, and even taught in them for a little while, until it became clear to me that they had no academic standards to speak of.

I know how the kids dress, how they talk, and how they behave. It's true there are good kids in the public schools, but as they say, one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, and there's a heckuva lot more than ONE bad apple in the public schools, lemme tellya.

You know, LC, I've thought about it, and early in homeschooling, I would've strongly disagreed with you about homeschooling not being a sacrifice. Single income homes are rare today, and there's a reason for that. If you give up an income, you give up quite a lot of creature comforts, and even some things you might consider necessities. You have no time for yourself, most of it's invested in the kids. That's the way it was in our family anyway, and at the time, I considered it a big sacrifice, particularly when I saw two-income families going on vacations and getting new cars, or other moms going out by themselves, or enjoying a hobby, or...just name it. TONS of things we could not do without my kids out of the house at school and my wife working.

But you know, as I near the end of the education road with my oldest, I personally am coming more to see it as a great privilege and reward, and not a sacrifice. I have good relationships with my kids. For the most part, they listen to and respect our advice and tend to doubt the wisdom of their peers.

I envision the day soon when my son stands before a crowd accepting some honor and publicly thanks my wife for the education and love we provided him. As tears roll down my wife's cheeks and I think of all the "sacrifice" we endured due to the loss of her income, I'll nudge her and say, "How's the pay?"

And we'll both know that it's far more than we ever imagined or deserved.

FROM LC

So you were a crappy teacher in a crappy public school, what a surprise. Not.

Yes, your talking points are tearsheets from SOMEWHERE because every one of them, down to the letter, I have seen posted on message boards throughout the years. "Are kids artifically segregated into age groups in real life?" That has to be a rhetorical question, it's so stupid.

I find it curious how you keep repeating "public school." Do you think private schools have such a better clientele? If you spoke to private school teachers, you'd find out that drug use is high in the rich ones (they can afford it), and there's a disproportionate amount of "issue kids," placed there by parents hoping the smaller class sizes will help.

So, John, with the majority of people being so awful (you allow that "some" are good, lol), just WHO are your kids going to hire, work with, work for, and live among? How will they manage? LOL, I'll let you chew on that for awhile.

And btw, even if I really did know nothing about homeschooling (despite being acquainted with various homeschool families and students for the past 20 years), I'd get a negative impression just from the occasional local newspaper articles done about them. Each time they profile a homeschooled kid or dad, they're the biggest blowhards around. One kid spouted for a whole article about how bad public schools are, despite never having been in one( which was written at the end of the article). These articles are done fairly frequently here, because there's a large homeschool population.

What they miss out on: being in band, orchestra, school plays, art department equipment, the various clubs and sport teams, being a part of something bigger than Mom's Kitchen Table. Some families do realize this, because they've sued the schools to be able to participate and use facilities. Gotta love the cluelessness of that, expecting kids with no accountability to the school or grade point average to be just dropped in on a team.

I considered it a big sacrifice, particularly when I saw two-income families going on vacations and getting new cars, or other moms going out by themselves, or enjoying a hobby, or...just name it. TONS of things we could not do without my kids out of the house at school and my wife working.

Why can't a homeschooling parent get out by herself? The ones you saw out by themselves used a service provider called a "babysitter."

Lots of single-income families go on vacations and drive new cars. My neighborhood has almost no working mothers. Their husbands make good incomes. Which enables them to live in areas with good public schools.

Does this really need to be explained to you?

You obviously have a high contempt bordering on hatred for homeschoolers and homeschooling in general. I can't really argue with you about that. You think public and private schools offer things that are of good benefit to a child. Fine. I think the same thing. There are definitely some advantages to educating outside the home, no question. There are good kids in the public schools. Yep, some of my kids' best friends are public school students. You live in an affluent area where single incomes are prevalent and high enough to provide new cars and vacations. Fine. I agree. I know homeschoolers in that category, but far and away, homeschoolers as a group are not even close to affluent, and need to carefully watch their budgets. In most families I know, a babysitter for an evening out is a significant expense. That's been my experience. And yep, I think private schools have pretty much the same problems as public schools. The main reason I say "public schools" is because private schools were never an option for me when my children were young.

Listen, these are my main personal reasons for homeschooling:

1. I want the God of the Bible in my kids' lives. I don't want them to think that at certain times and locations, God is not relevant. I want them to develop a personal relationship with their Creator and "hold His hand" throughout life. That is something not promoted in public schools. In fact, public schools are downright antagonistic toward ANYTHING related to God. I don’t want them to spend a large chunk of their childhood, when they are developing their spirituality and morality, in an environment that is antagonistic toward God.

2. I want to train my kids in spiritually and morally responsible sexuality. Public schools are antagonistic toward this viewpoint. They feel nobody has a right to “judge” anyone else in this regard, everyone needs to find their own sexual “rightness”, one mode of behavior is just as good as the next, and we need to be inclusive and accepting of “alternative lifestyles”. In contrast, I want to teach my kids that these alternative lifestyles typically lead to a great deal of emotional pain and turmoil and sometimes physical pain and death. I want to teach them a much better way to handle their sexuality than condoms, and oral and anal sex.

3. I want my kids to view themselves and others as special creations of a loving God, not randomly evolved naked apes with fat brains. I want to teach them how evolution was the centerpiece of nazi religion and how thinking of people as randomly evolved products of nature devalues them and enables a person such as Hitler to murder without compunction. However, viewing a person as made in the image of God encourages high respect and love for your fellow man. Public schools teach evolution as fact. I want my children to know that it is a belief.

4. I want my kids in a safe environment with someone they know loves them. I don’t want my kids at either the butt or point of ridicule, profanity, and the like, but to practice politeness and respect at all times. I don’t want them to participate in exclusionary cliques, but to welcome all kinds of people in their lives. I don’t want the possibility of violence, or bombs, or postal kids or teachers floating in the back of my mind. I don’t want to worry about other kids inducing my kids to try drugs or alcohol or sex. Knowing my kids are as safe and sound as possible and learning good things from a person who loves them the most is a great source of peace to me.

FROM LC

I don't have a contempt for homeschoolers, much less a hatred. I have a mild contempt for people who think their poor critical thinking skills are superior ones. Like what your whole post exhibited.

public schools are downright antagonistic toward ANYTHING related to God. I don’t want them to spend a large chunk of their childhood, when they are developing their spirituality and morality, in an environment that is antagonistic toward God.

No, it isn’t. It’s religion-neutral. Like the workplace.

I want to teach my kids that these alternative lifestyles typically lead to a great deal of emotional pain and turmoil and sometimes physical pain and death. I want to teach them a much better way to handle their sexuality than condoms, and oral and anal sex.

If your kids bring these views to the workplace they’re going to be sued or fired. And LOL at directing their sex practices …I’m not even going to go there.

I want my kids to view themselves and others as special creations of a loving God, not randomly evolved naked apes with fat brains. I want to teach them how evolution was the centerpiece of nazi religion and how thinking of people as randomly evolved products of nature devalues them and enables a person such as Hitler to murder without compunction. However, viewing a person as made in the image of God encourages high respect and love for your fellow man. Public schools teach evolution as fact. I want my children to know that it is a belief.

This paragraph is a random, rambling non-sequitor, and a crystal example of your non-critical thinking skills. Not even going to bother deconstructing it.

I want my kids in a safe environment with someone they know loves them. I don’t want my kids at either the butt or point of ridicule, profanity, and the like, but to practice politeness and respect at all times. ... I don’t want the possibility of violence, or bombs, or postal kids or teachers floating in the back of my mind. I don’t want to worry about other kids inducing my kids to try drugs or alcohol or sex. Knowing my kids are as safe and sound as possible and learning good things is a great source of peace to me.

Yep, frightened of your own shadow. What are they going to do in the workplace, when they have to cross streets to get there? And work for someone who doesn’t love them? And pick their own friends? BTW, school have rigid anti-bullying practices in place now.

Yeah, John, your kids sound like they’re going to be brilliantly equipped for the world outside your door.

I just learned last Friday that my son won a National Merit Scholarship and will most likely receive full tuition at OSU. Last month, he received the OSU Maximus Scholarship ($2700) and was invited to compete for a Maximus Medalist or Maximus Presidential Scholarship, either of which will give him a full ride when combined with his National Merit Scholarship. He finished that competition on February 6, and we'll know by the end of March whether he's won or not. My son will also be receiving a $10K scholarship from my place of employment. By the time he enrolls at OSU, my 18-year-old son will have already finished two years of college. He could earn a Master's degree by the time most other students receive their Bachelor's.

Yeah, you're right, LC...it's quite a task digging my son out of all this abysmal failure, lol.

FROM LC

That's great, John! But how is he going to handle learning from someone who doesn't love him? Or the stress of being in a place where he could be shot up at any minute? How does he handle his current jobs where he works for people not related to him?

He's probably better with his social skills than me. I am a fairly reserved person by nature. But you see, he didn't learn social skills from other kids who know next to nothing about it. He learned them from experienced adults who dealt with all sorts of people for many years. He knows much more as far as social skills than the average public school kid.

FROM LIZA B.

John:

I feel very sorry for your home-schooled son having you as his main influence and teacher. He probably never had much of an outside life, if any, since public school is where kids make friends and learn social skills, including how to interact with others. You write: "He learned (social skills) from experienced adults..." Yikes! Scary that a parent would limit their son's social circle, believing friends his own age would be a bad influence on him. So it's no wonder getting scholarships is a breeze for him. What else did John's kid have to do except study, study, study? It's sad, really, and borderline child abuse. Hope the kid isn't scarred too deeply from John forcing him to be a virtual shut-in and having to endure all his ridiculous extremist views and so-called "teachings."

At least the boy will be out of the house now.

FROM LC

So he's going to OSU -Ohio State? Oklahoma State? Either way, last time I looked, both are public schools, populated with ex- K12 public school students. LOL, all that disrespect, slovenliness and stupidity in one place! How IS he going to manage?

FROM BEAUTIFUL LOSER

What's a parent of a homeschooler gonna do when the child comes home and tells his/her parents that his/her best friend is an atheist or gay? Good gawd!

Liza,

Well, I don't know where you get the idea my children are shut-ins. My son has traveled around the country more than I have, and for the past year and a half, it's been a novelty to see him IN the house, lol.

I don't believe friends his own age are a bad influence on him. I believe limiting his friends to ONLY those his own age, as the public schools do mostly, is a bad influence. He has plenty of friends his own age, but I think he knows one of the best ways to learn and grow is to cultivate friendships with people older and more experienced than himself. So while he has plenty of friends his own age, he tends to gravitate toward people a few years older.

You know very little of me, next to nothing of my son, but you feel free to judge me for something you know nothing about. The truth is, my son RARELY studies. God has given him an excellent mind. To tell you the truth, we didn't really teach him much academically at all.

Here's an example of our homeschooling. When my son turned 3, he saw a billboard with large red words on it. He asked me what it said and I told him. Then he asked me how I knew it said that. I told him the basic rules of phonics. The NEXT DAY, he was reading. For the most part, that’s been our homeschooling experience with our son. All we’ve done primarily is expose him to learning opportunities, and he does the rest. Now, my girls, while very intelligent, are much more what you would expect intellectually from a kiddo. We had to TEACH them reading, writing, and math, but my son just absorbed it automatically. Much of our homeschooling with him revolved around God and morality and relationships.

Beautiful Loser,

Well, I don't know about other homeschoolers, but I would tell my child to do their best to show them God's love as Christ commanded, pray for them, and leave it to God to change their minds and hearts. That's about it.

FROM BEAUTIFUL LOSER

I don't understand where you get your info from, John. The sentiment contained in your sentence hereinbelow is telling me that YOU ARE CONTROLLING his life. Wow, that's scary.

I believe limiting his friends to ONLY those his own age, as the public schools do mostly, is a bad influence.

FYI, public schools DO NOT limit their students' friendships. This is a patent falsity, John O.

FROM LC

By the time he enrolls at OSU, my 18-year-old son will have already finished two years of college. He could earn a Master's degree by the time most other students receive their Bachelor's.

I'm a bit confused here -when did he do two years of college work? Sounds like he did it already? And what's the hurry? Why are homeschoolers always bragging that their kids "finished" high school at age 15? From what I can tell, it just means they had less classes. What is the benefit of him rushing through college? I honestly don't understand that.

I don't believe friends his own age are a bad influence on him. I believe limiting his friends to ONLY those his own age, as the public schools do mostly, is a bad influence.

This is such bizarre blathering! The public schools only "allow" him friends his own age? No, they group him with similar-age kids because it's hard having a discussion of Thoreau with a group composed of high schoolers and kindergardners! He is free to hang with kindergardners on his own!

To tell you the truth, we didn't really teach him much academically at all.

Yeah, I believe that.

I think you are full of sh!t and a troll.

Most of our homeschooling with him revolved around God and morality and relationships.

LOL, telling him about the evils of anal and oral sex, and of homosexuals, took twelve years?

FROM LIZA B.

I would tell my child to do their best to show them God's love as Christ commanded, pray for them, and leave it to God to change their minds and hearts.

I know enough about you to believe that you'd be a dangerous influence on any child. Not only is the above a perfect example of how you attempt to stifle your son's own independent point-of-view and free will, but it's lazy parenting. I'm sure that "advice" is how you handle any crisis or problem that comes up. And I'm also sure your son was not heard by you over the years if he dared challenge any of your delusional beliefs -- it's your way or no way, just as you've demonstrated here. Poor kid. Hope he gets deprogrammed soon.

Liza,

Good grief...What on earth has made you so hateful?

LC,

No...teaching him how to love and respect people, including God and himself, took about twelve years. Teaching him how to maintain his purity and to stand strong in the face of a world that wants him to treat virginity as something to be eliminated as quickly as possible took about twelve years. Teaching him to view his virginity as a gift to his future wife, and really, to himself, took about twelve years.

I did teach him that God views homosexuality as evil, but I made no comment about the morality of anal or oral sex, because God makes no comment about it. I expect he and his wife will discover what they feel comfortable and good about sexually, and that's what I've told him.

FROM LIZA

Why is it "hateful" to show concern for your son, John? You're the one who is demonstrating dangerous parenting skills and is behaving much more "hateful" rather than being a loving parent. Hit a nerve, did I?

I did teach him that God views homosexuality as evil...

Oh, brother. You see, John, this is a perfect example of YOU being the "hateful" one, not people like myself who will tell you that you're full of crap and foisting your own sick agenda onto your child. But you lack the self-awareness to realize that, and I hope your son doesn't suffer too much in the long run from your brain-washing.

FROM BEAUTIFUL LOSER

Wow. You taught your son that God views homosexuality as being evil. What sack of crap he's been taught. I feel sorry for your son, John O. Your God must be crazy. Any God who labels others or their views as "evil" is no God I would obey. My God, the Creator, loves all of us. Yup. Even those evil homos.

Liza,

Well, if it is hateful, then it is God being hateful. I just taught what was in the Bible. I didn't originate the view, I just believe it. I don't know what the big deal is. God views LOTS of things as evil; He views LOTS of things as good. I try to avoid what He says is evil and embrace what He says is good. I think in doing this, I cultivate a relationship with God and please Him to boot. That makes me feel good.

I don't mind that you think homosexuality is good. I really don't. Doesn't bother me in the least. I don't mind that you think my agenda is sick, but know this: it's not MY agenda, it's the Bible's. If you think it's sick, you think the Bible's is sick. To the best of my ability, I'm trying to follow the guidance and wisdom of the Bible.

Well, it's not hateful if that's what you were actually doing. I don't understand how attacking me and my beliefs is "showing concern" for my son. So far, you've said things like my son is stifled, following delusional beliefs and a sick agenda, and that he's brainwashed. That doesn't sound like concern to me at all. It sounds like anger and hatred to me.

I guess my son will punish me one day for all my hateful treatment of him. He says he's going to make millions and retire me in style, and the way things are going, I half believe him. I'll take that punishment any day, lol.

To tell you the truth, I think it's more like I hit a nerve with YOU, Liza. I'm not calling you all sorts of names and trying to insult you and denigrate your beliefs. I'm not upset in the least, because Liza, I don't know the first thing about you. I don't know where you live, whether you're married, what you do for a living, whether you have kids...absolutely nothing. I don't even really know if you're a WOMAN, lol. And you know very little about me.

So, your tirade is very much like watching a complete stranger go ballistic from a distance. All I can say is "What's going on with that person? Sheesh, I hope she's all right."

You may have heard the saying, "Throw a brick into a pack of dogs and the one that howls is the one that got hit." Well, I hear you howling quite a bit, but I don't know just yet what brick hit you. Could you give me a hint?

FROM LIZA

I guess my son will punish me one day for all my hateful treatment of him. He says he's going to make millions and retire me in style, and the way things are going, I half believe him.

Hmmm.... I don't think it's possible for your son to "make millions" selling Bibles door-to-door.

Well, as far as I know, he plans to be a computer engineer. He hasn't mentioned anything about selling Bibles. Although, you DO know that several million Bibles are sold each year...you could make a pretty good living, I imagine.

Ahhh...so the brick is God and the Bible. THAT'S what's hit you and got you all upset, ey?

FROM LIZA

No, it's your ego-based interpretation, that is, misinterpretation, of both. And I'm not upset in the slightest. You're projecting again.

We have a vastly different idea of what it means to love one's children. Your idea of loving your kids is giving them a sheltered life bordering on child abuse while you foist your delusional values and beliefs on them using strong-arm disciplinary tactics (emotional and physical punishment), until they have no choice but to agree with you for their sheer survival. Taking away a child's free will and independence to mold them into another version of your Bible-thumping, minority-hating self is not love - but a huge ego suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

If protecting my kids from dysfunctional families, drugs, violence, sexual looseness, rudeness, excess, and teaching them family cohesion, sobriety, peace, chasteness, politeness, moderation and frugality is a "sheltered life", then yep, my kids are sheltered, and I think we could do with a lot more sheltered kids in today's society. And yep, I got all these values from the Bible, and I think they're good and worthwhile to practice. I don't think them delusional in the least, but the best of what most people hope to see in the lives of their children.

But YOU, of course, will NEVER teach your kids any of those horrible stifling values. No way. You'll allow YOUR kids to frolic with a bunch of gang-bangers so they can learn about "real" life and become sophisticated, ESPECIALLY if that's what they freely will. After all, who are YOU to judge anyone, right? None of that sheltering stuff for YOUR kids. And sex and drugs? Why that's just a natural, normal part of growing up. As far as you're concerned, the more the better, right? Alcohol, homosexuality, heroin, bestiality, cocaine, sadism, crack...yes, let them experiment as much as possible so they can discover their "true selves", find what's "right for them", and establish their "independence". And you'll participate WITH them to show them that there is no real right and wrong, but only different ways of perceiving things, and while mainlining heroin is not something you yourself enjoy, they might gain great fulfillment out of it if only they're willing to try. And of course, you'll probably want to consider a divorce and recruitment of a stable of bi-sexual lovers just to clearly demonstrate that there's NO standard to which they need to adhere, particularly not your own personal standard. After all, you certainly don't want to mold them into another version of yourself in any way, right?

Right?

That ended the cage fight, lol.