A Critique of a Critique · The Unlikely Son

After I critiqued Nevrborn's post (see it here), it spawned a discussion that I thought people might find interesting. My comments in red.

FROM JUSTBISHOP

Not disagreeing with John, per se, but I do feel the need to point out that heterosexuals don't really struggle for acceptance in society the way that LGBQT individuals do. I could see how someone who feels like they are fighting against the current almost every second of their lives could start to feel defined by the part of them causing that struggle.

I suppose if that were the case, I might agree with you, but it isn't. Nothing defines them; they define themselves, like the definition, and want everyone else to like the definition too. And if you don't...well, let's just say I don't believe it will be too much longer before dissenters will find themselves in jail or fined just for voicing an opinion.

We just had a Gay Pride parade here. Now why do you think they parade? They want to proclaim their lifestyle (really a deathstyle) and make the definition of themselves nice and clear.

FROM ROGUE MUTT

Would you mind keeping your obvious homophobia out? This obviously isn't your kind of story, so just restrict yourself to making comments about the grammar and move along.

Homophobia? What's there to fear? They're the ones dying so young of these horrible diseases, not me. They're not to be feared, but pitied. That's all anyone can do for those who reject God and His laws.

JUSTBISHOP

They are allowed to wish and work for acceptance, just like anyone else. And no one is denying you your opinion. But turnabout being fair play and all, we don't have to like what you have to say.

You don't get to decide what it is that "they" are doing by parading, or being unashamed and open about their lifestyles. You may voice your OPINION of what they are doing, but an intelligent man would know better than to imply it as anything but.

Also, isn't everyone--in whole or part--defined by the struggles they endure in life? Is it not the overcoming of or succumbing to them a large part of what makes us each who we are? People who identify as part of the LGBQT community just happen to have very similar struggles and choose to take solace in that community sometimes. Why should the rest of us care why they do it?

FROM AUTHOR PENDRAGIN

Rogue: I agree with everything John said. He expressed his opinion in a genuine, tolerant, non bigoted, or mean spirited, manner. Second, homophobia isn't a genuine medical condition; it's a coined phrase used to demean heterosexuals with differing opinions about homosexuality.

FROM ROGUE MUTT

I wouldn't say referring to it snidely as a "deathstyle" is tolerant or non bigoted. But from your comments after this it's clear why you'd agree with John.

I wasn't trying to be snide. I was just making an observation about male homosexuals. They die young of horrible diseases, they can't reproduce...where in that lifestyle is there the hint of life? It's all selfishness and death. They live for their appetite until they die. Then they face a God Who plainly told them they must repent of their sin and love God more than themselves after spending a lifetime wallowing in their sin and loving themselves more than God. That scenario can end in nothing but final eternal death.

But they can choose to honor God with their minds and bodies, just the same as heterosexuals, and gain not only health and peace in this life, but life evermore. That's the good news - Christ, the source of all life, can give them and all of us new life.

I don't think I ever thought sexual orientation was a choice. I've met only one person in my life who did in fact choose homosexuality as a heterosexual, because in his words, "I fell in love, and it seemed like such a small concession to make." To this day, I'm not entirely sure he wasn't simply gay or bisexual. He said he was heterosexual.

But that is certainly the exception. All other homosexuals I've spoken with typically say they were aware of their "difference" from a very young age. However, even you, Mutt, must agree that the behavior itself is 100% choice, as is heterosexual activity. Everyone, if they are physically able, chooses whether or not to participate in sexual activity and the form that activity will take.

Now God has very specific and clear laws about sexual conduct - a child could understand them: no sex, except with a spouse, and God designed and defined marriage as between a man and a woman. The choice set before all of us is either obedience or rebellion. Will you, out of love and respect for your Creator, seek to obey His laws, or will you out of selfishness, rebel against them? That's been the real struggle since the Garden of Eden. For myself, I think the Designer and Giver of marriage and sex knows the best and most mind blowing way to enjoy them both. Those who rebel against those clear laws, often pay a heavy price in their own bodies.

Homosexuals have not been denied the right to marry any more than a dropped ball can be denied the right to fall up. God defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman, and for lo these many millennia, that definition, that reality has stood, just like His definition of gravity. Homosexuals can pretend all they want that the reality does not exist, but in the final equation, they'll be crushed by it, just like people who pretend gravity does not exist. That is the natural consequence of transgressing God's laws, but it does not have to be that way. They can choose otherwise. They can obey and not be crushed.

FROM ROGUE MUTT

lol. Fortunately we live in the US and not Saudia Arabia where religious law is the same as legal law.

FROM DEBBI V

This is scary. It is people who blindly believe the "word of God" that kill more people in this world than anyone else.

Who the heck is the authority on what should be and what should not be? How dare anyone say that marriage should be this, and love should only be this? I don't believe God exists. Period. All these so called laws are the ways in which mere mortals excuse their blind bigotry. And their fear.

I am not afraid and the only person I have to answer to is myself... I am not expecting some grand being to come rescue me at the end of my life for the "sins" I commited. I wish no one any ill will or believe them to be scum for the way that they are.

Most Religious people can not say the same.

Stop worrying about other people and leave them be.

My belief is hardly blind. It required a great deal of study and examination for me to believe in Christ. I was the king of the skeptics, lol - still am, just not in that area. And you're quite mistaken; it is godless people who murder. Those who fear God, don't murder. Those who don't fear Him, do. After all, why not? "The only people they have to answer to are themselves." Just google the statistics on Stalin or Mao or Hitler or any other leader who sought to banish God from their lives and their countries, who replaced the Word of God with the word of the state. There really is no comparison. Those who hold to no God bathe in blood.

I don't think it's a matter of what marriage should be, it's simply a recognition of what marriage is and has been for millennia. Just recognizing reality, is all. It doesn't bother me all that much when other people want to deny reality, because as I say, they'll be crushed by it. I don't mind witnessing the crushing, but I'd certainly not like to participate in it, lol. When they want me to deny reality also...well, as I say, it won't be too much longer before people like me are jailed or fined just for dissenting.

It's unfortunate you refuse to believe God exists in the face of such glaring evidence.

I don't believe homosexuals are scum...I mean, not any more than I am anyway, lol. But I do believe their (and your) loyalties are misplaced as mine once were. They center their lives around themselves when they should center them on something quite a bit larger and more important than that, to say the least.

As a general rule, I try not to worry about people more than they worry about themselves. I can't make someone concerned for something about which they have no concern. But I do enjoy the free exchange of ideas and beliefs and debating their strengths and weaknesses.

I guess (thankfully) I don't possess the amount of self-righteousness it takes to say "the only person I have to answer to is myself". You see, I've been wrong in so many things, lol, it seems ludicrous to me even to consider such a philosophy.

FROM DEBBI V

I had something written here and then decided I can't be bothered!

John, sometimes you have to realise that there is more than one opinion and belief in the world. Just because you believe it does not make it true.

I don't believe in God, and that is my choice, just as to believe is yours. This does not make either of us bad people. Unless of course, you use your religious zeal to condemn and advocate the killing of other people. Or to justify it, which often happens. Or if I use my lack of belief to say I can do anything because I won't get punished.

I am just getting on with my life and being a good person without the "fall back" of repentance saving me at the end of my life.

And please don't keep talking about evidence that God exists because there is none. Anything can be "spun". I guess you'll say that men did not land on the moon. Or that they did. Either theory has so much "proof".

People can believe what they want. There is no"winner" in an argument like this. Live and let live. Who cares anyway?

John, sometimes you have to realise that there is more than one opinion and belief in the world.

Let's see...Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Mormon, Wiccan, Christian, Atheist...yeah, there's way more than one. I realize that. Do you realize that?

Just because you believe it does not make it true.

No, but it is good and sensible to believe in something that is true, wouldn't you agree?

I don't believe in God, and that is my choice, just as to believe is yours.

Agree.

This does not make either of us bad people.

Agree. We were born bad people, exhibited from the very first "Mine!"

Unless of course, you use your religious zeal to condemn and advocate the killing of other people. Or to justify it, which often happens. Or if I use my lack of belief to say I can do anything because I won't get punished.

I can think of three justifications for the intentional killing of other people: self-defense, execution, and war. That's about it. People who don't believe in God, don't worry about punishment after death, they worry about punishment here on earth. If they think they can do something to their benefit and escape punishment and exposure here on earth, typically, they'll do it, no matter what it is.

I am just getting on with my life and being a good person without the "fall back" of repentance saving me at the end of my life.

Interesting. I'd like to know your definition of a "good person". Repentance isn't a fall back, it's a leap up. Having actually repented, I think I'm better qualified to know.

There's overwhelming evidence God exists, and with zero spin. Smack-you-in-the-face evidence. Mathematically precise evidence. Everywhere. Care to hear some that convinced me?

People can believe what they want.

Absolutely agree.

There is no"winner" in an argument like this.

I'm sorry you think of it as an argument and in terms of winners and losers.

Live and let live.

Exactly Christ's idea: give us life and let us live instead of die.

Who cares anyway?

You do, else you would not have responded. And I do. That's two who care.

FROM DEBBI V

"Care to hear some that convinced me?"

No. I am really not interested, John. You are wrong, I REALLY don't care, so take your tally back down to one.

I will not be visting this site, again.

I gave it a shot, and hung around trying to find lively writing discussion, but there has been none of that for the longest time. I am too busy to stay here and watch people unravelling in front of me.

This is a writing site. If I wanted a religious site I would go find one. I don't want to find one. People like you, who believe that people are born bad, make me feel physically sick, and sorry in my heart for you.

Good luck to you, John.

That people are born bad is not a belief, but an observation. From birth, we start to die. That's bad, isn't it? We lie, steal, and cheat from the earliest age, as soon as we are able. That's bad, isn't it? We hurt others either willfully or through ignorance. That's bad, isn't it? We get sick, tired, and hungry. That's bad, isn't it? And even who I'm sure you would call "good people" do these things. There are no exceptions. ALL of us are weak and puny and ready and willing to do evil when we feel it benefits us and we can get away with it. Even what most would call good things to do, we often do for selfish reasons, for our own aggrandizement or to make ourselves "feel good".

I don't know...can you observe all these things, all this weakness and evil, and still think we're born good? I expect you've done some things in your life by now where you say to yourself, "How could I have done that? That was horrible! I'm so stupid!" Well, the reason you can do things like that is because that's the kind of person you are, and I'm no different. Unless we have some outside help, we constantly revert to our innate selves, which is weak and evil.

I haven't really talked much about religion that I can see aside from the one sentence about Christ. Aside from that, it's all been about belief. Heck, I agreed with you a lot, lol. I didn't realize you were so sensitive and intolerant of discussions like this. I didn't mean to poke a sore spot. But okay, no need to stay where you feel uncomfortable. Adieu.

FROM SIMON SAYS

That people are born bad is not a belief, but an observation.

This mindset boggles the mind. Can't imagine believing that people are born bad or that a two year old saying "Mine" shows that he's bad. Humans are complex we are a mix of positive and negative we have a penchant for both good and evil, that doesn't mean we're bad.

I don't think Christ would have agreed with many of your opinions, John. Your Church may share your views, but not the man that inspired your church. In fact I think Jesus Christ would be devastated to know that so many horrible sentiments, judgements and actions are said to be done in his name.

It's not a matter of Christ agreeing with me; it's me agreeing with Him. He thought we were so bad that we needed a Savior to save us from our sins, and He volunteered. He died for our sins. Before I met Christ, I thought people, especially me, were basically good. Christ stands in direct opposition to that lie, and proved the truth with His death. If we were not sinful, He would not have needed to die.

But OK...death and sickness is good. War and murder and torture are good. Theft and lying and immorality are good. We are basically good people.

Christ begs to differ and died for the opposite view.

FROM SIMON SAYS

He thought people were bad because we weren't good enough to each other. Because we weren't focused on the poor and the hungry. Because we focused on material things. Not because some fell in love with the same sex.

Death and sickness are not people. Torture, murder, theft, etc. are bad things that people do. It does not mean that people are inherently bad. Most of us don't murder or torture or steal, no matter what circumstances we're in. Most of us lie, but while lying may not be a good thing to do, it's not anywhere near as bad as murder, torture etc. As for immorality, that is an individual and personal judgement call. What you find immoral I may not. I find many of your positions to be the absolute antithesis of my idea of morality. You judge others in the name of Christ. You label things as sins that he did not.

The bible may have labeled homosexuality as an abomination, but it also labels the following as abominations: Women wearing men's clothes, a proud look, eating shellfish or pork, lying with a woman who has her period, to name just a few. Either the word abomination did not have the same meaning at the time that it has now or eating a shrimp cocktail should be considered as big a sin against god as you consider homosexuality to be. As an abomination is an abomination is an abomination.

Per the bible a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death. As should disobedient children. And those who break the Sabbath.

Being a homosexual is no worse than eating a hot dog in the eyes of God. And for the record, I do believe in God.

Is it possible that you don’t know that Jesus was a Jew? He subscribed to ALL the law and prophecy of the Old Testament…including the laws prohibiting homosexuality. In fact, he went even further. He said just thinking about breaking the laws was equivalent to breaking them in your heart. If you just think about committing adultery, then you’ve already committed it in your heart. Pretty high standard, ey? Can you live up to that standard? I know I can’t.

So…morality is relative. What you think moral is not what I think is moral and vice versa. Would it surprise you to know I agree that this is an accurate description of how pretty much the whole world views morality? I think it’s precisely how we get people like Stalin and Hitler. To say the least, they had a different morality, and what you and I would probably find immoral, they did not, and it was their individual and personal judgment call.

Christ came in direct opposition to that viewpoint. In direct opposition to the world’s opinion, He said, “I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life.” Sounds kind of absolute, don’t you think? What do you think of a Man Who says He’s the truth, the living embodiment of truth, that essentially, He is the ruler by which you measure all other truth? I’ll tell you what I would think, in fact, what I did think…He’s NUTS! But the more I read His words, the more I found Him the most sane, clear, and moral thinker I ever read. So He’s not nuts or delusional…is He some kind of criminal? A liar? Out to con as many people as possible? No. That goes directly against all that He teaches. And He wasn’t after money, because He was poor. What then? What’s left? Just this: He was telling the truth. He really is God. There is no other truth aside from His truth. Nothing is moral except what He declares moral. And yep, He, in unity with His Father, declared homosexuality a sin worthy of death. But homosexuals ought not to feel singled out; He also declared fornication (heterosexual sex outside marriage) a sin worthy of death. We’re all in the same boat – utterly evil and utterly unable to keep His law. We need a Savior to save us from the deserved wrath from a righteous and just God. Jesus volunteered to take the wrath on Himself to protect us. All we have to do is accept that sacrifice and believe in its efficacy, and live a life in gratitude and servitude to Him.

Well, you might well notice that there is no death sentence attached to those specific items you mention, but there is with homosexuality. Actually, there are two Hebrew words translated as “abomination” in the Old Testament. One means exactly what you would expect – loathsome, detestable. The other means something akin to “taboo”. The first is used with sexual laws like homosexuality. The second is used with dietary and other laws that are less egregious to break. This is what I learned from different Hebrew scholars.

Per the bible a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death. As should disobedient children. And those who break the Sabbath.

Yes…so? If she is not a virgin, and was supposed to be, then she broke the fornication law and earned death. I would point out that by “disobedient children” the original language points to a disobedience that is habitual and particularly insolent and implacable. Otherwise, so? God takes these things pretty seriously, wouldn’t you say? I think the best question to ask is “Why?” Once you seriously consider that question, you start to understand Him.

Being a homosexual is no worse than eating a hot dog in the eyes of God. And for the record, I do believe in God.

No worse except for homosexuality earned you death, and a hot dog earned you a few days uncleanness ritual. Except for that, yeah, exactly the same, lol. Thank the Lord we no longer need live under any of those laws, but by the grace of God through Christ.

Good to know you believe in God. Jesus said Satan believes in God too, and trembles. The difference between mere belief and faith is submission and obedience to Christ.